[00:00:00] Welcome to Crypto Talk Radio, the podcast for everyday investors like you. Visit us on the web at CryptoTalkRadio.net. And now, here's your host, Leicester. Thank you for that, Bailey, and welcome everybody out there on Crypto Talk Radio found at CryptoTalkRadio.net. Allergies are still kicking my tail and I am hungry, so I am going to be slimming up today's episode here at CryptoTalk.fm. But I want to make sure I cover as much as I possibly can.

[00:00:31] I think what's happening now, it's interesting how influenced things are, how manipulated things are. It's really fascinating. And what appears to be transparent, clandestine attempts to try to trap people, to tell people something's the case. I don't know what it's all about, but I am going to talk about what I see because I think it's important.

[00:01:01] So I'll be coming to a couple of bits, mostly around what I'm seeing. This is all speculative. Don't have any evidence of anything. Just looks like it's some shady business going on in the crypto space. So I'll be talking about that. And then the tail end of the episode will be heavily focused on SHIB and the SHIB ecosystem, which I've not talked about in a while because I felt like the moment they did that with Leash, it was confirmed a scam. So I'll talk about that as we wrap up.

[00:01:36] CoinMarketCap.com. We will zoom out to the month chart starting with Bitcoin currently trending at just shy of $66,000 bucks. Not long ago, it had hit the $66,000 mark. And then of course, experience its natural back down a little bit. It's not a major deal, but I do see somewhat of slight downward prior to what appears to be a run up potential happening here soon. That's Bitcoin specifically, at least the theory of didn't fare nearly as well.

[00:02:05] Currently hovering around the $1,800 mark. It did have a run back up after a dip, but I don't see strength in Ethereum's at all. It does seem like it's there, but I don't see strength and I'm not exactly sure. Again, as I said at the preface, I'm not exactly sure what's truly going on other than what appears to be some form of manipulation. I could have that wrong. I could be way off rocker with what I see.

[00:02:31] But when I look at things like being BNB, which I don't talk about too much. BNB usually BNB runs up lockstep with Ethereum. BNB's had a hard time of it over the past bit. It had a run up, you know, a lot like the end of 2025 got all the way. It's like close to $1,400 bucks. But right now it's been hovering around that, you know, six to $700 range and hasn't had any run up.

[00:03:01] And that's odd because BNB seems to be more stable from what I can tell than some of the other ones. So I'm saying something's happening. I don't know specifically what it is, but it feels manipulative. It feels like it's not. It feels like it's artificial. It's not real. There's something that's suppressing parts of the market. Whether that's true or not. I really don't know for sure.

[00:03:27] The other bit of big news some people had was the recent announcement from BlackRock. Of course, BlackRock is one of those orgs that believes in DEI and ESG and they're killing the business, the gaming business. But if you're in that, you know, I'll share it for you. But they recently released, I think this started as of yesterday or today with this Bitcoin exposure, Bitcoin premium income ETF from iShares. And some people were, okay, what does that mean?

[00:03:54] Because some of the news articles talked about monthly income. I thought I would do the best I could to try to simplify down what this is all about. Consider it's possible I get some of this wrong because the way they write these up is designed to confuse people. That's the bottom line. But put simply, you can buy and sell and trade this like any other stock. So if you have a place that you do your trades right now on the regular trades during bankers hours,

[00:04:22] you can go to that same place, do the search for this BITA is its call signal, start trading on NASDAQ. And you should be able to do the trade if your trading facility of choice has allowed it because not all did. But apparently this is available right now. I've not looked myself. Don't plan to yet because I want to let the dust die down.

[00:04:44] But the way that it's described and the way I'm interpreting this, I don't want to get too down in the weeds on the trading side because this isn't the episode for that. Maybe I'll do a future episode to go some of this, but this is what I'm talking about when I say they're trying to confuse people. If you know how options work, then you're already ahead of the game. If you don't know how options work, I would advise you to avoid this because it's connected to options.

[00:05:13] So the bottom line is again, I don't want to go deep in the weeds, but the bottom line is an option, an option to buy, right? Gives you the right to purchase at a given price referred to as a strike price. You then pay a fee. Okay. The fees that are collected for what I just described for this new deal, the fund is collecting those fees against the strike prices. They're collecting it up, collecting it up, collecting it up.

[00:05:39] And that becomes this so-called monthly income that gets distributed to the shareholders. Now, because it's tied to options and that's why I'm fighting not to go too over technical, but because it's tied to options, it is therefore subject to the same downsides as options. That meaning specifically with this one, if Bitcoin's price pumps, it rockets as it tends to do, the gains get capped.

[00:06:06] You get just what that level was at whatever that strike level was. That's all you get for your quote monthly. You don't keep on getting a higher monthly simply because it ran out. So if you think of it in terms of your position, if you were to get in it, your position is establishing an amount of monthly income you can expect. If it runs up, you don't, you're not entitled to get more simply because the price ran up.

[00:06:36] So it almost, if you think of it, it almost behooves you not to get in now. If you think Bitcoin is going to run up again, assuming you care about the monthly income because you won't benefit from that monthly income. Now, the downside of waiting, this is a personal opinion, is the number of shares that you would be able to hold obviously would go down or the more money you'd have to put in to get the equivalent number of shares to balance it all out.

[00:07:04] Because the number of shares correlates in, if you put money in, you're going to get a certain number of shares and that's going to correlate to how much of the pool that you're entitled to in this form of monthly income. Now, let's be clear. Nothing has been transacted. There's no history. There's no, there's nothing to compare against. But just going off similar models, just to be clear, I wouldn't expect too much unless you're able to put six figures in the thing.

[00:07:32] If you're able to put six figures into that, that's a lot of money per month. Don't get it wrong. But again, if you had that money, you probably wouldn't be looking at something like that. You probably wouldn't be looking into this for monthly income type deals because you already have some sort of facility that probably does a better job. This is catered to two people from what I can sense. This is catered to whales. Absolutely.

[00:07:57] It's also catered to people that understand Bitcoin is volatile and they understand right now it could pump up to unreasonable levels at any time. But it also is catering to people who expect that it will stabilize at some point. That's what this is catered to.

[00:08:14] It's catered to at some point when we're past this random pump period and we get to a stable point that you should be able to rely on this as a source of steady monthly income. That's what people are resonating with is you could use this as an investment deal to get this monthly income. Now, it doesn't say specifically how that, you know, is a dividend distributed or how that distribution works.

[00:08:43] And we understand that from a tax perspective, it's probably going to nail you to the wall. None of those fine points have been fleshed because nobody's benefited from it yet. That's why I said I'm going to wait, watch and see what happens. But it's not that I'm against the idea. I think there's a there's some market for it. And I had enough that, you know, I can look at that. It's certainly better than a bank. And I was thinking about those things. You can trade it. You can sell it, liquidate it, then capital gains.

[00:09:11] And then you have to think about if the IRS will nail you on the capital gains plus the income. That's a double whammy versus if they get to the point like in some countries where cryptocurrency straight does not have capital gains. So, in other words, you're going to want to think about do I do this and possibly get nailed by the IRS or do I wait for the Congress to get their act together on the crypto side.

[00:09:36] And I think what BlackRock's trying to do now, this is theory, is at least open the doors for the whales where they want to just put it in there and not worry about the spot, you know, price shifts and not worry about the volatility and the legality of holding crypto directly. That's why I think they're just trying to make it available for the whales out there. That's my theory. I don't know for sure.

[00:10:03] The remainder of the episode is going to focus on SHIB, the SHIB ecosystem, and numbers I was not aware of, but they don't surprise me, and a laugh that I had. First, I need to put the person's name because this was not me that compiled this, although I've done copious videos about SHIB and the SHIB ecosystem.

[00:10:22] For me, I kind of, I don't want to say abandoned it, but I kind of overlooked it after a point because I was not sold on what I was seeing, and I didn't want to continue down the path knowing that it didn't appear like it was going to recover anytime soon. So I had covered bone, you know, I was a whale in bone, not now, but at the time I was a whale in bone. I was never a whale in SHIB. I did buy SHIB at a point years ago.

[00:10:49] I was one of the ones that was telling people, you know, Doge took eight years to get to a point. So I was trying to re-encourage people, but at the same time, that's predicated on not having idiots in your leadership. That's the genesis of what I see that seems to be confirmed. I'd like you to, if you're in that eco at all, I'd like you to assess what the person's saying. Make up your own mind. I know I've made my mind up, but I did it before this person. He just reinforced what I thought.

[00:11:18] So this person's name, according to social media, is Edinson Carranza. This person was talking about SHIB and at a high level basically said what I said, which is SHIB was all luck and timing. I'll add to that. Yes, it was luck. Yes, it was timing, but it was also idiot Vidalick burning half of it. That's what created the God complex that the person on Laker talked about, where you're just praising somebody like a God. That's what happened.

[00:11:47] That when he did that burn, that's what spawned all the different dog coins trying to get him to burn their tokens. And they tried to use it as a sales pitch. And everybody looked at him and worshiped him as a God figure. That's really all SHIB had. SHIB didn't do anything. They talked about the welly and all these. It didn't do anything. Focus fast forward. After they start talking about, we're going to do this Shibarium and all that.

[00:12:15] And then Shytoshi did the cologne scented book and he went up on stage and he's pitching the cologne scented book for one ETH or whatever that was. Just completely in the crypto bubble. Bone's supposed to be the gas for Shibarium. After they initially said it was going to be SHIB. That pissed people off. There's supposed to be governance. Then they were supposed to renounce, but they didn't fully renounce. Leash was supposed to be rewards. Then all of a sudden it starts printing out of nowhere.

[00:12:43] Initially they lied and said it was a one-time thing when it wasn't. It was actually a hack. The thing was hacked. And they turned on the rebasing that they left in the contract. Went afterward. Before that, they had told you that it was removed. It wasn't removed. They left it in there. According to the team, the original developer is the one who turned it on. So he basically left himself a back door and caused it to print out of control. It's still printing. It's like 300 quadrillion of leash.

[00:13:10] This is something that had over just 100,000 and peaked at like four grand. So the point is that everything I saw just was red flag after red flag after red flag. And I don't know where it went wrong, but it just seemed like it derailed at a point. This Edinson person, Carranza, put a post on CoinMarketCap that I thought was very intriguing. And I thought some of the numbers that the person gave would be of interest to people listening that were in the ecosystem. Curious what happened, didn't follow it.

[00:13:40] I did an update about the leash printing out of control. And initially they didn't believe me. And they didn't come back, give my credit when you saw what happened because I told you this is bad. But here's what the Edinson person says, and I'm going to quote some of these because they're good numbers. Quote,

[00:14:13] Here's the full breakdown. And then he goes into really good details here, which I thought was good. Some of this I didn't even know. First Chivas swap. The decks launched July, 2021st hit 1.5 billion in total value locked. So that's people staking in and stuff in 24 hours, right? Today about 45,000 to 167,000 in daily volume ranked number one 25 among Dex's 99% of liquidity gone. Stop. And I'll get to the rest.

[00:14:42] Because he talks about a couple of things from that Chivas swap. Let me give you my history on Chivas swap. I got into Chivas swap way back. There was a project called Ryoshi's vision. Ryoshi's vision. They were maintaining the Chivas swap application. The Chivas swap application. You staked your stuff in there and you're supposed to get rewards. It turned out that at some point it was set up to where a person, a human had to go click a button to get the rewards to issue every single time. It wasn't automatic.

[00:15:12] It wasn't smart contract. So for those people who criticize other projects like Blockdag, for example, for being outlaw, rudimentary mud show, let's just put it in perspective. SHIB was doing the same thing. SHIB was arguably outlaw. To a degree it kind of still is. But I'm saying back then, it was not that you had humans doing stuff. There was no smart contract and stuff. And again, it didn't do anything. That was 2021. Okay?

[00:15:41] What he's saying is hype. Hype caused people to jump in there. Now it's a fraction of pale shadow what it used to be. Continuing, quote, what was stolen? 1.3 million in SHIB. 1 million in ETH. 717,000 in K9, which is a different coin that I didn't follow. 680,000 in LEASH. 260,000 in ROAR. Again, I didn't hear about that one. 143,000 in TREAT, USDC and USDT and others.

[00:16:11] SHIB dropped 11.5%. Bone crashed 43.5%. $800,000,000 in market cap erased. Now, the bone crash is a couple of different things. First, somebody on the inside allegedly was dumping off bone. They had a significant bag of it. They were dumping off of it and dumping out of that project prior to them allegedly renouncing it. Somebody did analysis and determined it wasn't really fully renounced.

[00:16:38] And what happened is they have this other contract, top dog or some other garbage that it's set as the owner of it. So that allegedly no person had contract ownership of it. But by the point they had done this part, it had already cracked. And then the team had said, I remember this. They had said, we'll renounce it. So we're out of it. So we can't influence it anymore. But all the money had been drained out by that point.

[00:17:03] So just to be clear, bone, the reason it was so much more hindered than the other ones is because of all the fiasco that happened starting with them announcing it was going to be the gas for Shibarium instead of SHIB. That hurt sentiment. That hurt sentiment. But then allegedly whoever it was that dumped their major bags. And then after that allegedly did a renounce that wasn't really renounced because it went to the top dog. Everything came across shady as hell. That's the point.

[00:17:31] Continuing quote, the Shibarium bridge hack, which I talked about September 12th, 2025. An attacker flash loaned 4.6 million bone, seized control of 10 of 12 validator keys and drained 17 tokens worth $4.1 million. Only 12 validators securing a bridge with millions in assets, no multi-sync protection. Now, put in perspective what he's saying.

[00:17:58] This is the other person that was doing drain outside of a lead. This is why I say allegedly somebody inside had done a drain and then this happened and it drained even further. But what he's saying, 10 of 12 validator keys are all taken. How can that possibly be unless the validators are all in collusion, they're all working together instead of the same person? That's essentially the only way that could possibly happen because the validators should all be independently different people.

[00:18:26] He's also saying there's no multi-sync protection. If this is an advanced organization, how can that possibly have happened? Because remember, people are praising Shytoshi Kusama as this brilliant person up on top of the hill. But you're seeing these breaches and drains and all this fiasco that doesn't make sense. And again, for those that look at BlockDAG and they say, look at how rudimentary, because I say, look at how rookie that is, look at how rudimentary.

[00:18:55] I want you to understand what they're dealing with. This was just 2025. And Shibarium was still having issues for years from 2021 to pretty much up to 2026. Shib and Shibarium has never had stable. It has never had consistent. It has never had reliable. If you look at the dollars, ignore Shib. It doesn't matter. If you look at the dollars, start to finish on all their stuff, it's worse than BlockDAG.

[00:19:22] That's why when I say I don't see scam, it's because, dude, they're doing stuff and arguably better. But the bar was low because look at what Shib's doing. Continuing quote, Shib made a verse land, sold 19,600 plots. This is 2022. Investors pay $650 to $3,200 per plot. Now worth $6 each, down 98.6%.

[00:19:50] Over 20 million raised. 6,000 holders sitting on worthless digital art. He says digital dirt. It's really art. What is the metaverse quote is a basic PC chat app. Yes, that's exactly what it is. And I did not. I didn't understand it. It didn't make sense to me. I know it was hyped and shilled and all that, but it goes again to the level of incompetence and lack of technical skill.

[00:20:18] These people sold everybody that they were the top of the game because they got lucky with Shib. And because they got lucky with Shib, because Shib doesn't do anything. And idiot Villick burned half. That's all they had to hang their hat on because the other stuff they had didn't show up. Continuing quote, Shiboshi NFTs, 10,000 collection. This is 2021. Peak floor, 1.94 ETH, $8,700.

[00:20:46] That's as of the time, because remember ETH was pumping at that time. Now, $0.0548, $62, down 99%. $50 million in peak volume to $615,000. I ignored the Shiboshi NFTs because I think NFTs are a scam. Nobody has convinced me otherwise. I know Bored Abe and all that crap. I say NFTs are a scam. It's Emperor's New Clothes. They're a scam. They've been, I believe. They always have been.

[00:21:16] I will continue to believe that they're a scam because that's what I see. Continuing quote, K9, which is K9 Finance. And I remember this one. And K9 Finance at one point, I'm diverging a bit. They had sent out a message basically threatening the Shib team. They basically said, if you don't fix, this was after the breach, Shibarium breach. They said, if you don't fix this, we're going to start dropping some dimes on people. Quote, all-time high, three zeros, three five zero.

[00:21:44] Now, six zeros and four. Down 99.9% lost $717,000 in the bridge hack. K9 Finance shut down entirely just this February after the team failed to compensate. So, they threatened. They said, look, we lost crazy amounts of money because you're breach here. And if you don't do something, we're going to start putting some names out. They fought and fought and fought. And the Shib team never made it right. Even though the Shib team said they were going to, they never made it right.

[00:22:14] And then K9 basically had to shut down. They had to shut down business. It sucked. Continuing quote, treat the final ecosystem token. Hyped for three years before launching in January, 2025. All-time high, 0.019. Now, three zeros and one eight. Down 99%. Market cap, 392,000. Three years of hype for a dead token.

[00:22:40] Treat was written in the original paper that spawned after Shib that talked about what the future was going to be. They said then treat was going to be a rewards token. But remember that leash was supposed to be the rewards token. So, you create a confusion in the community, which I believe contributed to this decline because you've created sprawl, which is what I told these numbnuts. Continuing quote, leash, the scarce token, 117, 107, rather 1,646 supply.

[00:23:10] All-time high, 4,500 bucks basically in 2021. Now, and his number's wrong. He says 085. That is not true. It's got like, I want to say like 10 zeros or some crazy number. Down 99.99%. A rebase exploit in 2025 blew the supply to billions. And that's not true. It's now quadrillions of tokens. The entire scarcity thesis was destroyed overnight, which the team attributed to a developer that went rogue.

[00:23:39] And then initially they said it was a one-time thing. Turns out it was a lie. It was not a one-time thing. They got hacked. And after the hack, they turned on the rebasing. Allegedly, they reached out to the developer who threatened them and said that you have to do this, this, this for me or I'm going to let it go. And the team refused. And so, that person let it go. And I said, it's possible that whoever that person was knew they were going to do this all along like a disgruntled former employee and kind of was holding them by the balls to expose what was going on with the project.

[00:24:09] I don't know, but that's what it looked like. Continuing, quote, boom. Shibarium gas and governance token, all-time high, $15.50 in 2021. Now, $0.06. Down 99.6%. Market cap, $472 million to $15 million. It's actually lower than that. The lifeblood of Shibarium is on life support. Yes, it is. Shib, the flagship, all-time high, $4.0616. I'm pretty sure that's correct.

[00:24:38] Now, $5059. Down 93%. Market cap went from $41 billion to $3.4 billion. That's $37.5 billion in value. Gone. The shy stablecoin promised since 2021. First mentioned by Ryoshi in May 2021. Repeatedly promised by Kusama. From 2022 forward, status in April 2026. Never launched.

[00:25:04] Latest excuse, waiting on clear stablecoin regulations, four years waiting. On this one, it was true that it was in the original white paper. It was true that it was shilled and hyped and everything else. All of that is 100% legitimate and true. That is absolutely true. They were talking about this stablecoin and how it was going to change everything. This whole business of waiting on clear stablecoin regulations may or may not be the truth because as we know, there's never been clarity, no pun intended, on stablecoins.

[00:25:33] The problem is, is that it was talked about for years. So they shouldn't have even started talking about it until that clarity happened because we had a lack of clarity all the way back to 2021. Didn't stop people back then. They launched stablecoins all they cared to and just said, screw it. We're just going to do that. So I'm saying, I don't know what really is the case here. I will tell you, Lockdown apparently just said, screw it. We're just going to launch a stablecoin because why not? Same with FTX and Poof here. So some of them are just rogues that just do whatever and not waiting, which gives them

[00:26:03] less of an excuse. Continuing quote, Shibarium today, total value locked 1.4 million, launched the same month is what it is now, right? Launched the same month, 8.4 billion on the base. Daily transactions crashed to 557 as of April. Gaming ecosystem, 228 active players across 31 games. Bridge hacked for 4.1 million. This is what utility looks like apparently.

[00:26:32] So to just 200, do you understand that there was over a million holders of SHIB? And I said in an older deal, it doesn't matter that you got over a million holders on SHIB because the vast majority of them don't care about the ecosystem. They're just trying to wait for the token to make them a million there, which is never going to happen, just like Kuma in you. This seems to be evidence that nobody cared about Shibarium. And I said that nobody cared about Shibarium. Nobody cared about Welly. Nobody cared about the Shiboshis. Nobody cared about the Metaverse.

[00:27:01] The stuff they were doing, nobody cared about. They're catering to the stuff they think is fun, not the stuff that's actually going to entice people outside the crypto bubble. Here's my thing. Okay? Here's my thing. I am not trying to make fun of anybody who's in the eco or likes the eco or still celebrates the eco. I'm telling you what is. It's always, that's always been shady business. Countless projects that they all failed.

[00:27:31] Now, I can't tell you that they intentionally ripped you off. I can tell you that many people lost money. The people that lost money, they're the people that believed in this vision that really had no substance. This is the emperor's new clothes. This is what that is. This is, there's nothing here. There's nothing that told you it should have been a thing, but they all jumped in that stuff. Right? So when we look at other projects, not even just block tag, but any project, and they're

[00:27:58] making lofty promises and then they deliver stuff. Nobody, this is why I say outside the crypto bubble, real people don't care about NFTs. Real people don't care about cartoon dogs. Real people don't care about fake plots of land somewhere in a blockchain. Real people don't care about treats and canines and shiboshis. They don't care. Real people don't care. Real people care about one thing.

[00:28:26] If I invest in this thing, I expect to get some money out of it. That's real people. These, all of them, crypto projects, they don't focus outside the bubble. So when you see the types of things that they're focusing on, this is what you hold to scrutiny. You hold a scrutiny. What is it you're focusing on? And is it something that's going to appeal outside the bubble? Many of these projects, all they were doing is reacting to what was popular in 2021.

[00:28:53] So when you see they're stuck in time, that's in the past. That's why I started with this ETF because that's an attempt to try to appeal outside that bubble to something that's going to actually make them some money because they understand that a lot of people are on the sidelines. So they're trying to do something to get those people off the sidelines and not worry about the garbage. Do you understand what that means though? That means crypto projects can't focus in that direction. They can't focus on garbage.

[00:29:23] They got to focus on real. Real means different things to different people. I'm not suggesting it's simple. I'm saying that if they don't focus outside the bubble, they're not going to get those people back. They're going to stay or go wherever they're going to go. That money is not going to flow back in because you can't keep going off of what was popular in 2021. It's not popular anymore. I'm convinced. I'm convinced Shytoshi Kusama has got to be a 20-something-year-old.

[00:29:51] There's no way this is a grown-ass man in his 40s, 50s. There's just no way. Well, how can you have somebody in their 20s trying to appeal to people like myself that are way dirt older than that looking at the garbage they're putting out there and not understanding it? And by the way, I don't know if anybody's paying attention to other projects. DXRP. D-E-X-R-P. Another person I follow. They were talking about that project. Some people said, this is a scam. What the hell? BGM something or other.

[00:30:21] Somebody else I follow. They were talking about that one. People are like, that's a scam. What the hell? Dev or Debbie or whatever the F it's called. People are talking about NASDAQ and all that stuff. Now look at it. Drain like a crazy. And apparently the fast owner is dumping out the project. When you look at everything I just described, you look at this BGM. They reached out to Shillers to market the thing. The D-E-X-R-P reached out to Shillers to market the thing. The dev and the CEO, past CEO, just completely dumps off the project. Just completely kills the business.

[00:30:51] When you see all these projects that are doing that stuff and then you see the SHIB ecosystem and they're a bunch of numb nuts putting out childish garbage. It's hard for me to see that. And then I see something else that's not doing those things and swear that the one that's not doing those things is a scam. But the one that's doing shiboshis and dogs and shit is supposed to be the not scam. This is my perspective for you is you got to look at, again, what is it that they say they're going to do and do they do it? And is it outside the crypto bubble?

[00:31:21] Period. Beyond that, it's all outlaw, right? The whole industry's outlaw. The black rocks of the world, they understand this. They're trying to get real people money in because everybody, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about because that's what it's been turned into. In summary, when I look at the price of things then, all across the board, when I look at the price of things, I can only step back and say the price of things is always going to

[00:31:51] be volatile so long as we allow those children to dominate the messaging and we don't focus on real stuff that people care about. But when we start focusing on real stuff people care about, you're getting close to securities. You're getting close to all these things that might cause legality issues. You can't have it both ways. You're going to need to choose. Either it's just an outlaw, mud show, gaming stuff that's all fun and thus it shouldn't

[00:32:17] be subject to security stuff or we want it to tie to real stuff because we want to get the money but we understand the government's going to want to have their hands on it. You're going to need to choose. You're going to need to pick a side. It's that simple. If you can't pick a side, don't complain when the government decides for you because I think that's the road that we're headed down now.